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Scot: Heart attacks, lacerations, cancer. You know, we've covered some pretty scary topics on this podcast, but today we're going to dive into something that just might be the scariest. It might be the most terrifying topic of all when it comes to men, and that's men asking for help.

I mean, there's the cliché of asking for directions, right? Like we kind of get dinged on that one that we just will never ask for directions. Never been a problem for me. But it is a cliché, and that is a form of help. Or solving a work problem or seeking support for addiction, depression, or something else going on in our lives.

We just kind of don't like to ask for help. Why is that? That's what we're going to explore today and how you can ask for help from those in your life. And I promise, it'll make your life better, easier, more fulfilling.

This is "Who Cares About Men's �����Ƶ," information, inspiration, and a different interpretation of men's health. I'm Scot, I bring the BS. And you know what, guys, I've used a roller skate one time, more than once, actually, when I've had to move big, heavy objects in the garage, rather than ask somebody else for help. I'll prop it up. I'll put the roller skate on. It's very precarious. I'm probably lucky I haven't lost fingers or toes.

Mitch: That's so dangerous.

Scot: I know.

Mitch: I love it.

Scot: Better than asking for help. Also on the show, health convert, producer, Mitch.

Mitch: Hey there, yeah. So my very first semester of my master's program, I was so overworked, I had a caffeine overdose.

Scot: Rather than admit?

Mitch: Yeah, asking for any help. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scot: That's good. That's good. All right. So it put you in the hospital, did it?

Mitch: An urgent care with an IV drip.

Scot: Okay.

Mitch: Yeah, yeah.

Scot: All right.

Mitch: It was pretty serious. It was so dumb.

Scot: The MD to my BS, Dr. John Smith, how about you asking for help? What's your story?

Dr. Smith: Yeah. Good afternoon. And like you, I don't ask for help very often. And then I get yelled at by my wife when I can't walk for a couple of days because I've jacked my back up or something. She says, "Why don't you just call and ask one of the neighbors for help? We have a lot of nice neighbors." And I'm like, "Because I was already here and I could just do it myself," right? I want to get a roller skate now. I really do, to be quite fair.

Scot: It's the secret.

Dr. Smith: Now that you've opened my eyes. I just tend to try to throw it on my back or use those straps that you see the guys that bought some of those straps. After I saw guys moving, I was like, "Oh, I can do that." So I'm guilty as charged of like trying to lift a damn near washing machine by myself. Haven't tried that yet, but you've given me inspiration, Scot.

Scot: All right. Well, good. Still not asking for help though, I noticed. And also, to help us understand why it can be so hard to ask for help, Bryce Herrera is a licensed clinical social worker at Huntsman Mental �����Ƶ Institute. He specializes in helping people with things like depression, anxiety, and addiction. So he knows a thing or two about helping guys and guys asking for help. So I'm sure actually, Bryce, I mean, you know, you always ask for help, right? There's never a problem there.

Bryce: Well, yeah, I don't know if I'm an expert or not in this field because personally it doesn't always feel like it. I played sports, and I was sitting there thinking about that question, like I had no problem asking my coach for help on my jump shot, but that's where it ended. I wasn't going to say, "Hey, you know, I'm anxious about the jump shot." I'm just, "Help me with the jump shot." But yeah, if I were to say anything else, the coach probably would have just not said anything. He would have said, "Yeah, well, keep practicing."

Scot: All right. So let's expand on those stories for a second. Why do you think it's so difficult to ask for help? And I'll go ahead and kick this off.

I think, for me, there's a lot of things. It's kind of like a big old messy soup. It's maybe almost a sense of pride. Like I don't need help. I can get this on my own. This idea of self-reliance. I grew up on a ranch as an only �����Ƶ. You know? So a lot of times when things had to get done, there wasn't somebody else there to help. So I just kind of had to do it and figure it out on my own. And that's become a big part of my identity, I think.

In other cases, I don't think that there's somebody else around who I think can help. So I just kind of do it on myself. And I don't know, it could be the learned behavior because of growing up on a ranch. I'm not exactly sure. Mitch, have you ever analyzed your inability to ask for help?

Mitch: Yeah. And thinking back to that time that I pulled so many overnighters and was just chugging so much energy drinks and caffeine that it actually put me in the urgent care, there is something for me at least, especially when you were talking about being on a ranch, like I was raised very much with this kind of like gold standard of like self-worth had to do with one's usefulness, right, and how much of a burden you were upon others. And so there's something about like if I were to ask for help, I would suddenly become a burden upon others. And if I were to do that, it would really impact my self-confidence, my self-identity, etc.

Scot: Yeah.

Mitch: And so I would literally rather end up in a health situation that was pretty surprisingly more serious. You can hear the whole story on the "Seven Domains of Women's �����Ƶ" Caffeine episodes.

Scot: Yeah, sister podcast.

Mitch: Yep, our sister podcast. Yeah, I would rather do that than ask for even an ounce of help or an extension or anything, so.

Scot: I think related to that, you just triggered, I don't want to be a bother, I think, is another thing, right? So a burden, a bother, it's different kind of degrees of that. How about you, John? What's your story?

Dr. Smith: I mean, I feel the same way. I grew up where, I mean, I had some older siblings, but they were a little bit older than me, where they weren't around a lot. And it was more of just you just do the things that you need to do. I don't know, I think there is that thing just inside of me innately too, that's just like, "Just get it done. You can do it. You're fine." Even though I look at it and in like the back of my mind, I go, "Dude, you probably need to grab somebody to help you with this." I'm like, "Ah, I got it." You know? Just that . . .

Scot: Yeah. It would make it easier. It would make it more fun sometimes. But we don't do it, right?

Dr. Smith: Yeah. Well, I don't. Yeah, exactly.

Scot: How about you, Bryce?

Bryce: Yeah. I mean, a little bit of all the same of what you guys are saying. I think, for me, my mentality and probably can trace this back to �����Ƶhood in terms of what . . . Again, I had two brothers, a dad, so very masculine environment. And I always had this in my head, like I have no problem asking for help. It's just it hasn't gotten bad enough. You know? It has to get bad enough to ask for help. But the goalpost, you move the goalpost. So it gets bad enough, and it's like, well, it's not that bad. But I will ask for help when it gets that bad. It's just, do we ever actually get around to it? I don't know. Sometimes I did, and sometimes, a lot of times, I didn't.

Scot: And sometimes that idea of it's not bad enough, like our calibration on that isn't too good sometimes, as men. You know?

Bryce: That's an understatement, yeah.

Scot: Yeah. Like we go well beyond the, "Yeah, it's bad enough," before we actually go, "Yeah, it could be bad enough." In your experience as a therapist, Bryce, are there other reasons that men find it difficult to ask for help in the first place?

Bryce: Yeah. I think there's a lot of things you guys already said, like, what is the meaning that we associate asking for help with? And again, part of that is really, like you guys mentioned, what were our �����Ƶhoods like? What was modeled for us? There is this sense of like what does it mean to be a man? I've got to be strong. I've got to work hard. I've got to be independent. Like we mentioned, too, there's, "What is my value in the world?" And a lot of men see it as like, "What can I provide? What is my worth?" And a lot of times it's taking care of the kids, going to work, but it ends there.

It's not manly to ask for help. It's not manly to ask a friend for advice. It's not manly to do all these things. And again, a lot of that, like I said, is really just rooted in: What did we see? What didn't we see? What were the messages from .  . . . A lot of times, you grow up as friends. What's the peer group say about it? And again, I like myself, I grew up in sports, and it was reinforced you don't ask for help, or at least this is the right way to ask for help and this is the wrong way to ask for help. Or what are we even asking for help about? These are the things you can ask for help, but these are the things you don't ask for help.

Scot: That's a good one, huh, Mitch? Like what is permissible to ask for help with?

Mitch: Yeah, there's like a whole flowchart of rules deep in my head making sure everything, yeah.

Scot: Right, right. What about men and women? Like I try to avoid that on this podcast, comparing men and women. But, I mean, this is fundamentally one of the fundamental underlying things is this idea of what it is to be a man, right? And how do you know if you're a man? Well, you contrast that with what it is to be a woman. I feel like women tend to ask for help a lot more readily. Is that your experience, or has your education and training pointed you towards that, Bryce?

Bryce: I would agree for the most part. There's always outliers. There's always nuance to that. I mean, I've worked with plenty of women too who have the same struggle. I've worked with men who don't struggle with it at all.

One of the things, and just kind of on a side note, that's always fascinated me about the profession I'm in is what are these individual personality characteristics because, yeah, not all men are like this, or not all women are like this. But there are these trends, there are these patterns that you see. There's actually statistics on this, but also just in my daily practice, you see these trends.

And one of the things I think is interesting, I often see men who like don't have as many friends as they get older. Their social circle sort of narrows where, you know, and again, I could relate to this personally. My wife has way more friends than I do. And she stays in contact with them all the time. And so, like, I think it's just built into their relationships almost to some degree, even just the fact they have so many friends. Of course, they're asking for help. Where not only do men not ask for help, but they also kind of isolate themselves as they get older. That's a trend I've really noticed kind of mid-life, 30s and 40s.

Scot: And do you bring that up because that's just a smaller pool of people to ask for help? Or does that come back to just men tend to be more self-reliant than women?

Bryce: Yeah, I think men tend to be more self-reliant, like you said. I think, from a young age, women feel very comfortable in a, maybe a controversial, a dependent position. They have no problem asking for help and/or relying or depending on someone. But again, men see it as if I have to depend on someone or something, that makes me weak. I should be able to do things on my own. Therefore, again, if you think of it, if I walk through life through that lens, naturally, I think you're probably going to narrow your social circle.

I think there's something that I think of that kind of relates to men and women. We tend to disguise our issues in a certain way to where you may not even think about it as a guy because you've isolated yourself, so you don't even think about asking for help. It doesn't even come up in your conscious awareness because you kind of disguise yourself in this way where you work, you come home, you work, you come home. You don't even think about it.

Scot: Hey, guys, got a quick question for you. So we've established that most of us kind of have issues asking for help in one way, shape, or form. If somebody asked you for help, do you have issues giving them help? John?

Dr. Smith: No. I was actually just thinking that same thing. I said, you know, but it's funny because a lot of guys will be like, "Hey, do you need a hand with that?"

Scot: Right.

Dr. Smith: I think a lot of the people that I know around me that are these men who would never ask for help, they're always the first dude that's like, "Hey, man, you need some help with that? You want me to help you out with that?"

Scot: Yeah.

Dr. Smith: "You want me to help you put that together?" Or do you want me to help you? Whatever you guys need help with, whatever. And yeah, I think that's a weird phenomenon because those guys would be the first guys to also not ask you to help them.

Mitch: Yeah, even with my husband, when he sees me like screwing up something or like struggling, and he's like, "Hey, can I help you," I'm like, "No, I'm good. Don't even worry about it. Everything is fine. Ignore me." Like there's something about even the closest man in my life, I have a hard time accepting help, even when it's offered. But I'll offer it to anyone else.

Dr. Smith: Isn't that funny?

Scot: Yeah, we're going to get to asking help for other issues, other than kind of in the physical world, like drywalling the garage or that sort of thing. But I also want to say I would be the first to offer to help somebody. And not only would I offer, if somebody asked me to help them, I would be delighted, and it would make me feel good and useful.

Dr. Smith: Yeah.

Scot: And I recently just read an article that talks about, when you age, you know, this notion of feeling useful is just a really powerful indicator of happiness. Are you happy? Are you satisfied? And Bryce, when you said men tend to have smaller social circles, it took me a long time. Now it's still hard for me to ask for help for some other reasons. But I finally came to the conclusion that people like to help other people, especially people that they like. And when you do that, it allows a relationship to be fed and to develop more so. Am I an armchair psychologist here, Bryce? Or what do you think about what was just talked about there?

Bryce: I think I would agree. What's interesting about that, what I was thinking is men have no, and again, I'm over-generalizing here, like men have no problem like offering help. Or if a friend says, "Hey, help me with the drywall," I think men actually like being in that role. And part of the way I think of it is because they feel competent in the role of helping, and I say competent, meaning I don't think they feel competent in the other role, again, of the asking of the help. And so that's, I think, a little bit of the nuance in this.

Scot: Okay. So when you say competent, you mean, like it's just not something we're used to.

Bryce: Not used to. And just for . . . Or I don't feel competent. I don't know what I'm . . . anything. There's an unknown to it, I think, is part of it.

Scot: Yeah.

Bryce: There's just some unknown. Anything you don't know and can't control, you could say is I think there's insecurities that can get triggered. And so, again, I think the idea of asking for help, just the idea of they could say yes, they could say no, they could say I'm an idiot, they could say that unknown is so scary.

Scot: Oh.

Bryce: But I have no problem being in that other role of like, "Well, if you need help, yeah, sure, no problem. In fact, I know how to do that."

Scot: Right. Yeah. Huh, interesting. So asking for help drywalling your garage is one thing. But where I think men are really not good at asking for help is for big issues. And these are just some examples of what Bryce works with, like depression, addiction, big things in life that are happening that we just maybe don't know quite how to deal with or navigate or negotiate. Is there a difference in how men approach asking for help when it comes to physical versus like these mental health struggles? The things we've been talking about in the physical world, not physical health, per se, or is it kind of the same thing, do you think?

Bryce: I think there's a difference. There are cases where like I know guys who won't ask for help for anything, literally anything, physical, mental, drywall. Like they just won't ask for help. And those are probably the extreme cases. But I have found some difference between like physical health and mental health, and I have my own theory on it a bit. But I think men tend to think sort of more analytical, more rational, where mental health is somewhat subjective. The field of psychiatry itself is somewhat subjective. Emotions are often subjective. They can be quite irrational. They don't necessarily make sense. Like, "Why am I crying here? I don't even know what's going on here.

But where you look at physical health, I do think like a lot of men that I know tend to think of it in that way of, like, well, if you break a leg, what are the options here? You either cast it. You do surgery on it. It's pretty straightforward. There's no nuance to it. Where again, emotional health, mental health, there's so much nuance to it. Again, and often it makes no sense. "Why am I angry? I'm not even sure I'm angry. Why am I crying? I don't even know why I'm crying." So I do see that typically men tend to be a little more scared of the mental health than the physical side, in my experience.

Scot: Mitch, would you be less likely to ask for help with a mental health issue than you would something like drywalling or moving or something like that?

Mitch: Yeah, it would be harder for me to ask about mental health stuff. In fact, on this podcast, I've shared a lot of my own mental health journey, and it had to get real bad. It had to get to bottom-of-the-barrel, ruining-relationships-type stuff until I was able to even admit that something was wrong, let alone reaching out, asking for help, and going through the very kind of sometimes long process of trying to find the right mental health person for you and complicated systems. I have trouble. I mean, this particular topic has hit me pretty deep in my core because I was even thinking like, "I've hurt myself pretty bad," and just been like, "Don't worry about it. Everything is fine. We'll keep going," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's strange that the vulnerability of asking for help is still, even all these years later in my life, etc., is still such a hard thing to ask for, both mental health or otherwise.

Scot: How about you, John?

Dr. Smith: I feel the same. I'm probably not apt to do either, to be quite fair.

Scot: Okay.

Dr. Smith: Yeah. I'm not good at this. I've actually had this conversation with my wife before, where she's like, "You really just need to ask for help because you're not 25 anymore. You can't do these things."

Scot: Right.

Dr. Smith: And like when stressful things happen at work, because as a doctor, sometimes things don't always go the way you want them to go and people get hurt, right? And that's the stuff that will wear on you mentally and can really kind of take a toll. And so that is something that I've had to learn over my career, of like, "Hey, you have to stop and take a minute," because there are those moments where if you don't, I think it can hurt.

And so I think I'm still not great at it, but I've definitely grown in that arena over the last several years, where now I am a little bit more apt to do it. I'm still very hesitant to do it, to be quite fair. But there are times where I have had to, not had to, but I've made that decision to ask for help and do the thing. And so I think I don't like it, but I'm growing in that area of my life, and I think I am getting better at it, if I want to be fair and honest with myself.

Scot: In a situation where, like you said, something doesn't go the way you want it to in your career, for a patient, and there's a lot of stress, have you asked for help in the past from your wife? Help support that sort of thing? And if not, what holds you back? How did that experience go? Dow did that feel?

Dr. Smith: Well, yeah, I mean, so when it has happened and I've asked her for help, I've also talked with some of my other partners about it that are older and have a little bit more experience. But sometimes when they're the things that kind of hit hard, I wear them on me. And obviously, my wife knows me better than just about anybody else in the world, other than maybe my mom. And so she sees it when I come home. She's like, "Hey, how was your day?" And you give the old, "Oh, it was fine. No big deal." And then she's like, "Dude, you can cut the crap. Like I can totally see you're wearing something from the day, right?" And so the nice thing is she'll push me to really open up. And when you do, it is nice to be able to have that moment of vulnerability.

And then there's been other times where something hasn't gone right and I've gone to my partner and said, "Hey, man, I just had this happen, and I'm pretty, you know, not shaken necessarily, but like it kind of just hit you," and I'm like, "I want to hear from you. I know you've done this longer than me. Like how do you deal with this when these things happen?" And I've gotten some really good insight from some of my senior partners in our group that I really just look up to and think, "Man, like I'm so glad I'm here where I'm at, and I have these folks to lean on." And so I have taken those opportunities. I probably should take more of them than I do, but I definitely have had those opportunities.

Scot: I'm going to be honest. So like if I ask for help in things in the physical world, like, "Hey, come over," and I want to . . . The drywall things getting kind of old, but it's the only thing I can think of right now, versus if I'm facing like something that's stressing or depression or just not feeling great in the world, I felt like the times I've asked for help for the drywall, "Yeah, I'd love to come over. It'd be great." I bring up the other issues, it's like, "Oh." It's silence. It's like I didn't get anything out of asking for help. I didn't get the thing I was looking for. I didn't get anything other than maybe some awkwardness. Bryce, is that a normal experience for men? So, I mean, as a result, then I don't, right? I just rather just keep it to myself.

Bryce: Yeah. I mean, yeah, again, right, because it's like, what are we asking for help for? I mean, I think of even just when I'm hanging with the boys and we're watching the game, and I don't know, right? And you ask for help in terms of, yeah, maybe I'm really struggling at my job, or I've been really stressed with taking care of the kids. And sometimes there is this response, like even from my guy buddies like, "Dude, we're trying to watch the game. You know?"

Scot: Let's not talk about this.

Bryce: Yeah, you know, "Whatever. Maybe another time." But, again, "We're chilling here."

Scot: Yeah.

Bryce: With guys, it's guys night, you know?

Scot: But is there ever a good time for guys, you know?

Bryce: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that is real, too. I don't think this is like a fantasy in guys' heads of like we were talking about most of the time if we ask for help, right, like most of our friends, guy friends, whoever, it usually goes well, but not always. Like I don't think this is something we just make up in our heads. I do think there's times when almost people are shocked that we're asking for help because we don't do it very often. They're like, "Whoa, what's going on with you? You never ask for help, almost." And they're almost caught off guard, even a little bit. That happens. I feel like that probably happens a little bit to all of us.

But again, I see it in my practice all the time. It's like, "Well, I talked to my wife, like you said, and she was kind of weird about it."

Scot: Right. Yes.

Bryce: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, "Well, all right. Well, I'm glad you came back. Let's talk about this." And that's why I also do a lot of couples work too, because it's good to bring the couples in or the wives in and kind of get the nuance again to it. But, yeah, I think what you're saying is real. Yeah.

Scot: Yeah. And when it comes to wives sometimes, and, yeah, part of me hopes my wife hears this, and part of me hopes my wife doesn't hear this, it's like I leave with this stereotypical idea, usually from most of those experiences of she didn't really want to know anyway. This is just adding stress to her life now. Like it was just better for me just to keep that to myself and figure it out. You know? I don't know. Bryce, what do you think of that?

Bryce: Again, I'm careful because, yeah, maybe my wife can be listening to this.

Scot: But, yeah, these are the conversations we probably should have with our spouses. So I guess if it happens this way, it happens this way.

Bryce: Yeah. No, I mean, I do think you're right. I mean, people, we're all busy. I mean, we all do have lives. Sometimes I'll come home and want to talk about something, and she's busy. She has her own job. My wife is in school. And I'll sometimes get a, "Well, not right now." You know?

Scot: Yeah.

Bryce: But I think it can go both ways on some level. I mean, as a therapist, sometimes she wants to talk, and I'm like, "It's all I've done today." You know?

Scot: Yeah.

Bryce: So I think it can go both ways. It never quite goes as planned. And again, I think that's the nuances. I think we wish we knew exactly how it's going to go. We should know exactly. I'm going to ask for help, and this is exactly what's going to happen. We want the consistency, and to some level, I guess there's control in it maybe. And so, yeah, I see that a lot.

Scot: All right, Bryce, we're going to transition to now how to ask for help, get what you need, and feel good about it when it comes to the things that you deal with. I'm talking again about mental health stuff, depression, addiction, if things aren't going well in your life, if you've got some stress because you've got some elderly parents that are dealing with health issues. Those things that us guys normally don't ask for help, either from our buddies or our spouses, and we should. So what are some strategies to try to make that feel normal, make that more of a successful experience for us, and get some benefit out of it? Because there is benefit, right? Is there a detriment to not asking for help in these situations and benefit to asking for help?

Bryce: Yeah. I mean, again, you can see in terms of like mental health, and I do a lot of substance use treatment, I mean, I've seen those extreme examples where they ask for help and they have cirrhosis of the liver and they need a liver transplant, and they drank for 30 years and never asked for help, or they blow up their family in a way or damage their relationships. Again, extreme examples, they go so long not asking for help that they feel to some degree useless, and we see high suicide rates amongst men. So yeah, I mean, there's kind of, again, those benign examples and the big ones. And I think, kind of to some degree, the benign examples sort of can just grow and grow and grow and grow the longer or the more you procrastinate.

Scot: So there's definitely a downside. There's definitely an upside for asking for help. So how can guys do it? How can we get around all this garbage that we talked about today and actually make it happen?

Bryce: Yeah, the million-dollar question.

Scot: Well, that's why you're here, so.

Bryce: Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I said, there are these sort of individual personality characteristics with a lot of men. The thing I'm big on is modeling, whether I'm sitting with a patient, for example, I'm very open about being in my own therapy with patients. I have no problem discussing that. I have no problem talking about why and kind of what I get from it and things like that. So in some regards, I want to model, and I want to practice what I preach with patients.

But I was thinking even of like I use that example, I'm with the boys, and I'm having this emotional conversation. I still ask, and I continue to ask, partly for my own benefit, but I also think it's important if my friend, let's say John, at that moment, he's like, "Why is Bryce asking for help?" Maybe a year from now, two years from now, he can kind of look back on that interaction and think, "Well, Bryce did it. And I respect Bryce, and I trust Bryce to some degree. And so, yeah, maybe I'll at least maybe ask Bryce about it."

So I think modeling is huge. If you're going to ask a guy to seek help, maybe you yourself should be doing that too. Again, practice what you preach. I'm also big on something, again, not just clinically speaking, but even professionally too, is one of the things I think is important is to understand the duality of it. There are times when it is more advantageous or even part of our survival, because there's something about, like for men, they see men asking for help as a bad thing, but then we can also kind of reinforce it on the other side of like, but if you don't ask for help, that's a bad thing too. And there's still this idea of no matter what I do, I'm kind of damned if I do, damned if I don't.

So instead of looking at it as like not asking for help isn't necessarily a bad thing, but let's bring in this other aspect of asking for help. You know how to do that, and we don't have to take that away, but let's bring in this other part of you that can ask for help. And then I think beyond that, I think, again, like I said, not putting pressure on anyone to ask for help either. Being curious, I think, is the biggest thing we can do in our relationships. So if someone isn't asking for help, don't judge them, don't criticize them, but be curious. "Well, how come? What's going on? Is there anything I can help?" Those are the things, not just, like I said, clinically speaking as a therapist, but even just professionally, I try to model and talk to my friends and people in my life about.

Dr. Smith: No, I like that. I think the approach there is good. And a lot of times when we get on this podcast and we talk about things we can do to be better, a lot of it is just we end up with like a "Just do it." You just have to do it, right? And I think sometimes none of this is ever going to be comfortable. And I think that's kind of what you're saying is you've got to model these things, and it's not comfortable to do it in the first few instances that you're going to do it, but it's never going to be comfortable unless you do it.

My boys are learning how to ice skate right now, and they look like baby deer when they're out there. And I tell them, "Guys, you're never going to get comfortable unless you do the thing. We have to go and do it in order to get better at it." And I think that's kind of what I'm hearing from you, Bryce, is that you have to step up and be willing to be vulnerable. And I think that's one of the things I think that it's resonating with me. I don't know if I'm hearing this incorrectly, or I just need this in my life right now to say, "Hey, you should look to be more vulnerable." But that's kind of what I'm understanding from you're willing to do that with your patients, with your friends, and therefore you're making it okay for them to do it. So I think if we want to be the people, we can proactively do that for everybody else.

Mitch: All of this is really resonating right now because I've been kind of lucky in the last few years. As I enter my late 30s at this point, and I have my 30-something friends now rather than my 20-something friends, I'm finding myself modeling, like we were talking about, but it took a while to get there. I had to start small, right? If you're stepping out on the ice for the first time, you're going to wobble a little bit. You're going to fall on your butt maybe a time or two, right? But eventually it gets a little easier. Eventually it gets a little more . . . You can gain more benefit from it. You can experience more or have a deeper connection with someone.

I mean, I'm now to the point that my boys, right, the guys I hang out with, we're all 30-something millennials in therapy. Like we are very upfront about, "Hey, I'm having some depressive episodes lately, but don't worry, I'm talking to someone about it." It's like, "Sick. Love that." And it's this weird back-and-forth that is so much healthier for me, at least, than it was in my 20s. Being able to still approach it in a very like masculine, sometimes jokey way that feels comfortable, but still to be there for people and still be there, ask for help when I need it. And I'm not the best. I still struggle, but it's been really cool. And it took some small steps and kind of keeping your eye on the prize that it'll be worthwhile, I promise.

Bryce: I'll just add to that. I think the goal too isn't perfection. Like you said, it will probably always be a bit difficult.

Mitch: Right.

Bryce: It will probably always be a bit difficult. I'll never be an expert. I'll never be perfect at it. But like you said, as long as you can understand it a little bit better, and, like you said, repetition, over time, you do anything long enough, it's no longer a thing. It's just part of what you do, like dogs bark so they bark. It just becomes something like that, that's just almost involuntary at that point of just something happens, you ask for help. There's not that little buffer of like, "Should I? Should I not?"

Scot: Bryce, will you model a little something for me so I can see what this looks like?

Bryce: I'm scared.

Scot: Well, but like model how I would ask. So let's say I'm dealing with some depression because I'm not fulfilled at work, right? And I'm with a buddy, and the game is not on, right? So it's the right time to have a conversation. Maybe it's just the two of us. We're out for wings. We've been just talking about life or whatever. How do you ask for help, and what do you even ask for? Like if I'm dealing with stress, I don't even know what I would ask Mitch if him and I were having wings. Like, "Wow, I've been really stressed lately because of this thing. Will you help?" I mean, I don't know what I'm . . . Give me some insights on that.

Bryce: Sure. Yeah. I mean, again, I don't know if there's ever a perfect time. But I sometimes talk to my patients about like, "Don't overthink it." You're eating wings. "Hey, Joe. Hey, can I ask you about something?" "Yeah, sure." "Gosh, I know I've talked to you about work and my job, and you know about that, right? Gosh, I wonder if you could be a sounding board for me here. I'm really struggling with, you know, X, Y, Z, and I'm not sure what to do. I can't even sleep about it. I just don't know what to do about it." Even just something as simple as that. So, again, I don't overthink it. I kind of just say what it is in a sense. But again, I find so often we kind of like beat around the bush, and we, "Oh, I'm going to wait for the right time for it to come up."

Scot: Right. Is there value in that type of asking for help, just be a sounding board? I guess that's asking for help. It doesn't feel like it's asking for help. But is there value in that? Is that all it really is, Bryce?

Bryce: Well, yeah, I think yes and no. So I'll add on to this. Sometimes maybe it is helpful to say, "Here's what I'm looking for. I'm not . . ." And again, not to get into the gender differences again, but there's somewhat of this stereotype of when men ask for help, they want advice, and when women ask for help, they just want to be heard.

Mitch: Right.

Bryce: And so I think it is good to state that they're very different. So it is sometimes good to, and I work with couples on this thing of when you do ask for help, maybe state, "I'm looking for advice. Maybe I'm just looking for a soundboard. Maybe I just want you to listen."

Scot: I just want to say this thing out loud to somebody.

Bryce: I just need to get this out. Yeah, I just need to get this out. So yeah, maybe stating your objective, I do think it, depending on the relationship, is very important.

Scot: And then I guess it could evolve to, "Have you experienced something similar to that? What did you do?"

Bryce: Yeah.

Scot: And then it might be like, "Oh, you ended up going to therapy? Well, do you have somebody you like?"

Bryce: Yeah.

Scot: Does that sound like asking for help, guys? John? Mitch?

Dr. Smith: I was just going to say, you know, I think you brought up a good little side note of, like, to me, I'm like I could kind of be sly about it of like, "Hey, you guys ever had any of this happen?" Where it doesn't necessarily have to be me being completely vulnerable. I can just ask for someone else's experience with the thing I'm struggling with and maybe it makes it less of an awkward conversation starter. But then once it's, "Oh, yeah, yeah." And then it's like, "Oh, cool. They've had it, too. Now I can be open." You know what I mean?

Scot: Right. "Hey, you ever mud drywall joints and make it come out looking good?" "Oh, yeah." "Well, tell me about that." I guess the same thing could be for when you're dealing with an aging parent or whatever I suppose.

Bryce: I'm asking for a friend. That's it.

Dr. Smith: Yeah, yeah. I get that a lot in my job, though. Everybody is asking for a friend. So I'm used to that.

Scot: Right. Yeah, that's funny, as a urologist.

Dr. Smith: Yeah.

Scot: And then by asking that way, then the other person could volunteer, "Hey, let me know if there's anything I can do," right? And then maybe there is something he can do. And then that feels a little less threatening. I don't know, Mitch, what do you think?

Mitch: Yeah, I think one of the things for me, the big tools that I have learned how to do is when someone asks me, "Hey, I'm feeling something," or, "Hey, I'm struggling at work, I'm a little stressed," the thing I ask is, "Are you looking for notes? Are you looking for feedback? Are you looking for . . ." Because sometimes, especially with my guy friends who have kind of similar background, etc., they don't know what they want, right? We don't have the experience to say, "Oh, I need some emotional validation right now," or, "Oh, I need whatever," right? So it's just like, "Hey. Well, what do you think about this?" Like I will ask, "Well, what do you need from me? Do you need like that's something that I've experienced. Would you mind me sharing what I have felt in those situations? Or do you just need to vent for a little bit?"

And I find that opening up that level of collaboration sometimes, as the person being asked to help, can sometimes help a whole lot for the other person because then you're becoming collaborative. You're helping be kind of like asking for help coach of sorts.

Scot: Right. You're not asking for help. You're asking for collaboration. I like that. That sounds less threatening, too. All right, gentlemen, I think it's time to wrap this up. I'd like to get some takeaways. Maybe we could even come up with a little challenge, one thing that you're going to try next time you find yourself in a situation that you have to ask for help. John?

Dr. Smith: Yeah, I'm just going to send it next time. I'm just going to . . .

Scot: You're going to be brave?

Dr. Smith: Yeah, I'm just going to . . . If I come home and it's been one of those days and I need to unload it on my wife or my brother or something, I'm just going to come out with it. I'm just going to go full send, and that's going to be my commitment to myself is just to be better at it. Just say, "Hey, man, I'm just going to do it. Let's go full send."

Scot: "Hey, honey, I got something that's on my mind. I want to talk to you. Is this a good time? Is there a better time? But I just really want to talk this through with you."

Dr. Smith: Yeah.

Scot: And then that would solve that problem of, "Not now, honey. Not now." How about you, Mitch?

Mitch: So the thing I'm going to try is I'm going to like take my own bits of advice. I'm in the middle of a really tough move right now, and I refuse to ask for any help. And I'm just like, "I could really use someone else's hand just lifting a couch rather than getting Scot's patented roller skate." And maybe that's what I need. That's what I'm going to do. That's my challenge for the next couple of weeks is just ask for help with something that, yeah, I could maybe do by myself, but it's going to be a whole lot harder.

Scot: Okay. And by the way, I'm willing to help lend you my roller skate.

Mitch: Oh, that's . . . Okay, perfect, perfect.

Scot: Right. Bryce, how about you? Did you pick anything up out of this conversation?

Bryce: Yeah. And my goal, on that note, I need to make some more friends. I need to expand my circle of people I can ask for help. So that's mine. But no, I love this topic. On a serious note, again, I'm in mental health. This work is really tough. Unfortunately, I have lost individuals to suicide and overdose. And like I said, it's heartbreaking. And so even, I don't know, whoever's listening to this, and you haven't asked for help, and you need help, want help, again, the help is there. There's no judgment. There's none of that. We have all the clinical services here at Huntsman Mental �����Ƶ Institute if people need help. Yeah, so it is serious, and I know we joke, but yeah, this is a real issue that we all, as men and women, struggle with.

Mitch: And I'll plug right now, if you are not in the state of Utah, call 988. That is the Suicide and Crisis Line. And they will make sure that they get you to, wherever you're at, the help that you need.

Scot: My takeaway is I'm going to try to reframe this. Instead of asking for help, it's asking for collaboration. And also, I'm going to try to more proactively offer help, figure out a way to do that without seeming threatening to the other person. I think this is a two-way street. Something that came up in this conversation is it's more than just asking for help. It's showing other people in your life that it's okay to ask for help regardless of what it is, whether it's Mitch needs help moving or John's dealing with a stressful situation at work, to just show them, "Hey, you know what? I'm a kind of guy that I'm cool with that." And I really loved how Mitch drilled down and saying, "Hey, what is it you need from me right now? Do you just need somebody to listen? Are you looking to brainstorm some ideas? Do you even know?" I mean, that's cool too, right? I think that's really kind of good to kind of set what are the expectations here? I think that would solve some of the frustrations I've had when I feel like I've reached out and I've gotten weird responses that wasn't what I wanted. Maybe it's my fault for not telling people what I wanted. I don't know.

Anyway, that's a wrap for today's episode. If you have thoughts or questions about our topic today or have a story about when you didn't ask for help, probably should have, or as Bryce said, if you are in a position where you really need to ask for help, there are people that are willing to help. Just ask for it. It is totally cool and totally fine. And you can tell us about that, hello@thescoperadio.com. That's hello@thescoperadio.com Thanks for listening. Thanks for caring about men's health.